This involves making sure my poop is not hard. The main thing I’ve learnt from being a bottom is that you need to look after yourself. And none of them are nice to have to deal with. For more information, visit. So when I hear a bottom joke what I actually hear is someone saying 'I hate myself.'". No matter what sexual act you are doing, there’s a risk of getting an STI. “Yeah, you’re frigid”, he said. Then push out the water. However, this does not mean HIV-negative guys are not at risk from unprotected sex or sharing sex toys. I love an addict: what do I do? However, if you erect a wall or set boundaries, they will look for easier targets. If you’re involved romantically with someone who is battling through … When I told him I never bottomed before he understood. The hepatitis B virus is in blood, cum, piss, spit and shit, as well as other body fluids of a person who’s infected. It makes sure that I’m clean down there.”, Jamie, 23 and also from London, says: “I’ve swapped toilet roll for wet wipes. One night he stayed over at mine and we decided to try it. In 2016, over 2,810 gay men were diagnosed HIV-positive in the UK. I’ve never had bareback sex with someone I didn’t know. It took a few days for my arse to get back to normal but bottoming is definitely something I like.”. Simon is 19 and from London. No assumptions should be made about the sexuality, HIV status or views of individuals or organisations featured on this website. I thought it wouln’t happen to me because of my age. Stop Being Nice. I was wrong. She would prefer to receive only, and she’ll probably be upset if you expect her to return the favor. However there is still HIV in pre-cum and he may blow his load before he has the chance to pull out, so this is still highly risky sex. I could tell he was an expert at being a top. Bottoming doesn’t work like that.”, Matt is 31 and from Brighton. (NSFW) Hard times - the ups and downs of the penis, HONcode standard for trustworthy health information. Gonorrhoea, or ‘the clap’, is a bacterial infection of the urethra (the tube you piss out of), arse, throat or eyes. However, other STIs can be transmitted through condomless sex. (Note: The above video contains content that may not be appropriate for work or other sensitive environments)For anyone who has never bottomed (aka been anally penetrated) before, the idea of trying out the sex act can be intimidating, to say the least. And enjoy it.”, Simon says: “If you’re a newbie to it like me, then expect some pain at first but it will go away. I think it’s a lot of trust to place in someone’s hands.”, Alfie told us that he became HIV-positive at the age of 20 through unprotected anal sex. Hepatitis A. While it is rare, condoms can break during fucking and this could make it possible for HIV or other STIs to be transmitted. HIV-positive men with an undetectable viral load cannot pass on the virus. Ms. Krista Tippett, host: “Compatibility is an achievement of love. He invited me to his place. As part of our ‘Big Gay Sex Survey’ we decided to ask the 3,141 men who took part if they were happy with their sex lives, and what was important to them. Well that is stupid and I think when people tell these bottom jokes they think they're being funny but it's actually an expression of their own internalized homophobia because somehow you're 'less than' if you bottom because it's more feminine and somehow that's a bed thing. -- Jenny Block. It’s quite interesting to me the increase in questions that have been coming in about the viability of top/top and bottom/bottom relationships, and it’s actually something that’s concerning to me. Again, it’s important to be polite, but being nice by saying yes all the time only hurts you. 5. As far as gay sex goes, getting fucked without a condom, and having your partner cum inside you, is the riskiest thing you can do. By using wet wipes after I poop I make sure I’m clean in that area.”. They are powerful, untameable beasts, capable of wielding I had a few drinks and hooked up with a guy through Grindr. He describes himself as a total bottom and somewhat expert in anal sex. Thinner condoms are great.”, So what if you want to become a bottom. Depending on how your body is, the amount of foreplay and how much lube you use, up the bum can be a pain in the arse. If the guy getting fucked is HIV-positive and has an undetectable viral load the risk of transmission is reduced, however levels of virus in anal mucus may not match the level of virus in the blood (which is how viral load is usually measured). He doesn’t describe himself as a total bottom, but does like it from time to time. Is anal sex better without condoms for a bottom? All you have to do is fill up the douche ball with warm water, insert it and squeeze. I have always viewed bottoms as the one’s with the most sexual power because they are in the sexual submissive position (i.e., literally being inserted). Test for STIs: All sexually active gay men should test for STIs at least once a year. GMFA and FS magazine are part of HERO - Health Equality and Rights Organisation. You deserve kindness from your partner. When I'm in a relationship with someone, I enjoy doing both. Charity Number: 1076854 | Company limited by guarantee: 2702133© 2019 HERO - Health Equality and Rights Organisation. This definition pertains to the B/D / S/M (Bondage and Domination, Domimation and Submission, Sado-Masochism) scene. This was after couples in the study had sex more than 58,500 times without using condoms. If you are having group sex, it’s also important to change condoms for each partner. Test for HIV too when you’re there. Being drunk is not an excuse for mean behavior. How you access PrEP in the UK depends on where you live, it’s available on the NHS in Scotland, and trials are being run in England and Wales. Most gay men who have HIV caught it from getting fucked without a condom. Being a bottom can sometimes be a painful pleasure. “You’re frigid”, he said. Jake is 22 and from Glasgow. Not being … HIV experts used to think that infection from the receptive partner (bottom) to the insertive partner (top) was as a result of bleeding in the arse. But I do remember a time it was painful. Or even worse – something falls out. But there are many more STIs out there, some of which you can get from oral and anal sex. Getting fucked is also high risk for most other STIs, including chlamydia, gonorrhoea, herpes, syphilis, warts, hepatitis B and for HIV-positive men it is thought that you can catch hepatitis C as well. That’s life. Traditionally injecting drug use was the most common way to catch hepatitis C but it is now known that unprotected sex, particularly high risk sex and group sex, is associated with hep C infection. All rights reserved. If you are HIV-negative, fucking someone bareback is more likely to lead to infection than sucking cock. I won’t have unprotected sex with someone who’s negative – even though I’m HIV-undetectable – I don’t want to risk passing HIV on to them. Altogether more than three quarters bottom sometimes. Condom breaks usually occur because condoms are used incorrectly or are used for long sessions without changing them. For more information or to find your nearest GUM clinic, visit www.gmfa.org.uk/clinics. Crabs are usually transferred during naked body contact (yes, we mean sex). These types of submissives may even be looking to live in a full-time dominant/submissive relationship. a sub is not a doormat. The hepatitis C virus is present primarily in blood (including dried blood) and can also be present in cum. This site complies with the HONcode standard for trustworthy health information > Verify here. As an occasional bottom there is nothing worse than presenting a dirty arse to someone. I don't treat people I'm in a relationship with like a "bottom" or a "top." Motlatsi Motseoile explores the intricacies of sex in gay relationships, and how being a bottom is often mired in shame and ridicule. immense pleasure but also able to cause devastating emotional wounds. This is so that if I do end up with a few cuts after sex they don’t last long.”, Eric is 35 and from Manchester. If you are a top remember that HIV can be present in anal mucus (the stuff that lines the inside of the arse), so pulling out will not reduce the risk. If this topic resonated with you might want to check out the classic book on codependency: Codependent No More by Melody Beattie. Regardless of my sexuality not being anyone’s business, this brings in tropes that demonstrate how society often perceives and represents bisexuality. For more information, visit www.gmfa.org.uk/condoms-and-lube. One of the advantages about being gay in our culture is … Over 3,100 gay and bisexual men took our survey. In our ‘Big gay sex survey’ out of the 3,141 gay men who took part over half described themselves as versatile and a further 22% were ‘bottom only’. Bottom may also describe a wider social context of submission within a romantic or sexual relationship, though this element does not apply to all people who prefer to bottom. The information provided on gmfa.org.uk is designed to support, not to replace, the relationship that exists between a patient/site visitor and their physician. It took about two minutes for him to get fully inside me but after a while the feeling went from uncomfortable to wonderful. About 10% of gay men who are HIV-positive don’t know they have it. This time I knew what to expect. Freddie told us, “If you want to be a good bottom make sure you are clean. Words by Ian Howley | @ianhowleyPhotos © www.chrisjepson.com | @chrisjepson. But since … Although it’s possible that blood is responsible for transmission in some cases, we now think that anal mucus is the body fluid that enables the man doing the fucking to become infected. "This whole bottom shaming thing really grinds my gears... People call me a bottom all of the time and how many top jokes do you hear?" I don't think bottoms have a more "feminine" role. It’s not that I don’t want to, I’m just worried about HIV and STIs. In non-BDSM, specifically gay porn, the case that could be made for the sub (or bottom), having more control in the relationship seems, if anything, even … I like the person, not the sexual position they prefer. PrEP only protects you against HIV, you will need to take other precautions to reduce your risk of contracting other sexually transmitted infections  such as gonorrhoea, chlamydia, syphilis and hepatitis C. How you access PrEP in the UK depends on where you live, it’s available on the NHS in Scotland, and trials are being run in England and Wales. It has to do with the types of men you prefer in a relationship. If you think you’ve been exposed to HIV, contact your local GUM clinic or go to an A&E. Wavey ponders in the 10 minute-long video. Chlamydia is a bacterial infection. February 9, 2017. Check out the video above to learn more about all things bottoming -- even if (especially if?) Generic, reported no HIV transmissions from an HIV-undetectable person. I went over, we started to fool around a bit and he asked if he could top me. However lesbians answer those questions is the answer to what constitutes sex when it comes to queer women. This is because it’s theoretically possible that traces of HIV-infected anal mucus or blood could remain on a condom after a guy with HIV gets fucked. The brand marketed drug is available through private prescriptions, but it is also legal to buy generic versions for personal use. In group sex it’s theoretically possible to catch HIV from getting fucked even if your partner is HIV-negative, if he has fucked someone who is HIV-positive and then fucks you immediately afterwards. In the BDSM world, “Dominant” is a word that’s thrown around a lot. For more information, visit www.gmfa.org.uk/hiv-undetectable. How risky are fucking and getting fucked with condoms? So long as all partners consent and enjoy these moments, this is A-OK, says Callie Little, a sex and relationships educator and writer. This is because there could be traces of HIV-infected anal mucus or blood on his cock. For more info on PEP, visit www.gmfa.org.uk/pep. The brand marketed drug is available through private prescriptions, but it is also legal to buy generic versions for personal use. Being a bottom does not equate to a feminine gender role which does not equate to being submissive (maybe in sexual position only). The pair gets into the nitty, gritty realities of what bottoming entails, covering everything from douching to shaving your anus to using sex toys to anal health to the link between stereotypes and perceptions of bottoms and internalized homophobia. Here’s what you need to know about:Chlamydia. In an attempt to avoid conforming to social norms, I would argue that the concept of being a top or a bottom is barbaric, that it is simply society telling us that even in the queer world, there needs to be a “man” in the relationship. From a sexual point of view, there are obvious logistical problems of two tops or two bottoms being in a monogamous relationship. I feel a great responsibility in making sure my HIV infection stops with me.”, Matt tells us: “I try to use condoms all the time but mistakes happen. I’m someone who ends up with small tears and cuts after bottoming so I need to take care of my arse. The PrEP Impact trial in England has now begun (12/10/2017). Some decades back, when street-homeless heroin use started becoming more obvious around city streets, a couple of epidemiologists got together to screw in a light bulb. Cold sores on your mouth can be spread to another person’s cock or arse, and genital herpes can be spread to the mouth. Today is National Voter Registration Day! Anything that is thought to emulate the behaviour of women, even in sex, is frowned upon by men. Generic versions can be bought online. One finding that struck me as particularly interesting was the relationship between a man's ... note, in some cultural settings, being gay is largely associated with being the bottom. He told us; “I’ve been fooling around with this guy for a couple of months. Depending on how your body is, the amount of foreplay and how much lube you use, up the bum can be a pain in the arse. “Douching is the most important part of anal sex. Hepatitis A is found in shit and is acquired by getting shit in your mouth. In previous relationships I was – mainly – the top. Fucking someone without a condom is less risky than getting fucked without a condom, but it is still one of the riskiest sexual practices that gay men do. HIV-positive men with an undetectable viral load cannot pass on the virus. I told him to stop. We made it easy for you to exercise your right to vote! Going public with my HIV diagnosis, I expected to lose everyone, but the reality couldn’t have been more different. Here’s how to know if you’re being used by a man: you can’t tell your friends and family about the relationship or how he treats you. There’s nothing worse than fucking some guy and all you can smell is shit. The recent PARTNER study reported no HIV transmissions from an HIV-undetectable person to their HIV-negative partner. Making the decision to come out as a gay man living with HIV wasn’t easy for me. I also don't believe in the whole top/bottom dichotomy. Making sure you are clean, poop free, and look after any tears or sores around the anus. Being in a D/s relationship has many opportunities for personal growth and change, but in general, it should be a dynamic full of acceptance and positive encouragement. “I douche about three times a week. I can’t just take a penis up my arse. And that’s just anal sex. In particular HIV-positive gay men are getting hepatitis C sexually. There are two forms of herpes: HSV-1, which causes cold sores around the mouth, and HSV-2, or genital herpes, which leads to sores around the cock and arse. There’s a new HIV status in town. Syphilis is a bacterial infection which is most usually transmitted through fucking without a condom and cock-sucking, but which can also be caught through rimming, fisting and even through skin to skin contact (although this is rare). The trial is recruiting up to 13,000 people. Your donation will help HERO to support gay and bisexual men through GMFA and FS magazine to create personal and social change in our community. Read more. 2) A homosexual male who either a) enjoys receiving anal penetration or b) is activeluy involved in being anally penetrated. “It took a couple of weeks but we tried again. I have been with my current partner for two years and in this relationship I have only been the bottom, as my partner has a fear of it. I’m greedy, I suppose. Here's Everything You Wanted To Know About Being A Bottom (NSFW), Sign up for membership to become a founding member and help shape HuffPost's next chapter. PEP is a month-long course of HIV medication that can stop you becoming HIV-positive if started within 72 hours after sex (the sooner you start taking it the better). The actual role of the top or bottom is determined personally by each partner. I thought telling gay men I’m HIV-positive at speed dating would be easy. Lesbian sex is about intimacy and pleasure, which is what any kind of sex really should be about. He told us his first time bottoming was really painful, but after a while the pain turned to pleasure. For more info about PrEP, visit www.gmfa.org.uk/prep. He pulled out quickly and I felt an instant burning sensation. This is because the anal mucus that lines the arse (we all have it) can contain a very high concentration of HIV. It was painful. Condoms: Using condoms while having sex is still one of the best ways to avoid picking up any STIs,  becoming HIV-positive or passing on HIV. He made sure I was comfortable. You can also get it by sharing sex toys. It is most commonly passed on by fucking or getting fucked without a condom, but it can also be passed on by sucking cock or rimming. Alfie is 26 and from Liverpool. Look after your butt. Less often, they can be caught from infested bedding, clothes and towels. It can be passed on by rimming, sucking cock, fucking or getting fucked without a condom. It’s not that difficult to do. In this latest video from YouTube celebrity Davey Wavey, the gay Internet icon teams up with fellow vlogger Colby Melvin to create the ultimate "Gay Bottom Bible." Condoms can prevent most of the infections that you can get from fucking, although it’s worth remembering that some STIs can be transmitted even if you use condoms. No assumptions should be made about the sexuality, HIV status or views of individuals or organisations featured on this website.The information provided on gmfa.org.uk is designed to support, not to replace, the relationship that exists between a patient/site visitor and their physician. For more information on sex, sexual health and STIs, visit www.gmfa.org.uk/sex. Cum outside: If you are someone who doesn’t use condoms, not on PrEP and you’re a bottom then it will decrease the risk if he doesn’t cum inside you. What happens when an HIV-positive guy goes to a '28 Gays Later' speed dating event. Bottom is also used as a verb meaning "to be penetrated by another, whether anally or orally". A bottom is usually the more submissive one, and the term “pillow princess” is used to describe someone who never gives her partner sexual stimulation. you aren't a gay man and you think it's something you'd like to try (and you have our full support if you do).Also on HuffPost: Part of HuffPost News. Anything we want it to be, honestly. ©2021 Verizon Media. If you use condoms correctly with plenty of water-based lube, it will greatly reduce the chances of them breaking. It happened to me once and I have never been so embarrassed.”, Freddie is 27 and from London. This isn't always the case, though. For instance. What turns you on? When It's Two Women Together, What Is "Sex"? You can get herpes by kissing, sucking cock, rimming, fucking without condoms and even frottage! It can be passed on by rimming, sucking cock, fucking or getting fucked without a condom. HIV-positive: If you are HIV-positive, on medication and undetectable then the chances of passing on HIV is virtually zero. Being a bottom is something I pride myself on.”, When we asked Alfie how he managed to turn the pain into pleasure he said: “I learnt what works and doesn’t work for my body. Once you have it, you have it for life (the same for herpes). Being a Dom can seem very appealing. “I make sure to carry thinner condoms on me at all times. However after years of having anal sex I have turned the pain into pleasure. My body was so relaxed that the painful sensations didn’t last long. Condoms provide an effective barrier against most STIs, including HIV, although some STIs, such as syphilis and warts, can still be transmitted if the condom does not cover the entire infected area, such as the base of the cock. A … How can you make sure you’re not acting like one? I didn’t know what to expect, how painful it would be or if I’d even like it. No matter what type of relationship you are in, there are rules, but rules in a lesbian relationship are something that a lot of people don't understand. As a bottom you don’t want to feel like a plastic bag is entering you. Some people think that to be a bottom, you must be the more effeminate or less dominant partner; likewise, some people think of tops as men who take the lead and are more assertive and conventionally masculine than a top. How many chemsexers does it take to screw in a light bulb? Herpes is a virus that is spread by skin to skin contact. Unfortunately, there are a lot of fake Doms out there. I've been in a gay relationship for 6 years and there are rules in a lesbian relationship that none of my friends get – … They have feelings and needs and so they shouldn’t serve apathetically or reluctantly. "Is it really an insult if you call someone a top? Even if you always use condoms for fucking we recommend that you get regular sexual health screens at a GUM clinic and continue to test for HIV on an annual basis. And even for those who've spent some time in the saddle, there's still a lot to know, a lot to remember and a lot of misleading information out there. Gonorrhoea, or ‘the clap’, is a bacterial infection of the urethra (the tube you piss out of), arse, throat or eyes. The virus can be spread by sharing needles, sharing snorting straws, unprotected sex, or by getting blood or infected cum in your mouth, eyes, or on to broken skin. I made sure to use lots of lube and massage my bum. Being on top of the penis really allows for you to determine your level of comfort. This can happen through sex acts such as rimming or sucking someone’s cock after unprotected sex. About 80% of new HIV infections come from having sex with men who don’t know they have HIV. Being a bottom can sometimes be a painful pleasure. I need lots of foreplay – this could be rimming, massaging, oral, nipple play, etc. How do you want to connect physically/sexually with this person? Full-time submissives, on the other hand, are usually the hard-core players in the BDSM game. The pain brought tears to my eyes.”, So what happened next? It cannot be its precondition.” Alain de Botton’s essay “Why You Will Marry the Wrong Person” was, amazingly, the most-read article in The New York Times in the news-drenched year of 2016. “My first time bottoming was something I will always remember. PrEP is a pill you can take to protect you from HIV. Spicing up our sex lives with some daddy/son role playing. It takes about two weeks for most STIs and four weeks for HIV to show up in a test. Learning how to protect yourself from being used in a relationship involves being aware of your tendency to make mistakes and overlook bad behavior when you’re in love. In this latest video from YouTube celebrity Davey Wavey, the gay Internet icon teams up with fellow vlogger Colby Melvin to create the ultimate "Gay Bottom Bible." He just tried anal sex for the first time recently. A real Dom wouldn’t Relaxation is probably the most important factor in enjoying anal stimulation. Tap here to turn on desktop notifications to get the news sent straight to you. As a result, I’ve variously been straight-passing when in relationships with women, and have also had people assume that I am gay when my relationship status hasn’t been disclosed. Here’s what they said. In BDSM, bottom can mean either a submissive partner (see below) in sexual play (such as in being flogged, tied, humiliated, or made to serve), or a partner who receives stimulation from another, and who may or may not be submissive. If pain occurs, you can stop, call it a day, and try again another time. The ongoing fetishization of masculinity means that the traditionally submissive role of the bottom is associated with effeminacy. When you make it easy for people to grab your time (or money), they will continue to do it. Make sure you use plenty of water-based lube too. had sex more than 58,500 times without using condoms. For more information on sex, sexual health, STIs and HIV visit, www.gmfa.org.uk/sex. It’s called undetectable. I only have bareback sex while in a relationship with someone who is the same status as me. As people, and as a culture, he says, we would be much saner and happier if we reexamined our very view of love. So here at FS we decided to talk to some bottom boys and ask them how they deal with taking it up the arse. You have rights. Stay away from Vaseline and baby oil – they will make the condom rip. I love it. This is because the lining of the arse can absorb liquids directly into your bloodstream. In our ‘Big gay sex survey’ out of the 3,141 gay men who took part over half described themselves as versatile and a further 22% were ‘bottom only’. I’ve wanted to have full-on sex with him but the idea of anal sex made me feel weak. He had topped some guys before so I felt he knew what he was doing. The more you do it the better it gets.”. We live in a hyper-masculine and patriarchal society, often framed by the cisgender-heterosexual man. This time it worked. I think when I meet someone I love and trust I might think about not using condoms but at this moment in time... condoms are here to stay.”, Jake said; “I’ve had bareback sex a couple of times but, it was only with a boyfriend. Simon told us: “So far I’ve never bottomed without condoms. The mucous membrane just inside the tip of the penis and the foreskin can absorb liquids, like anal mucus, directly into the bloodstream. If there’s HIV in his cum, and it goes up your arse, that will be absorbed too. Getting fucked without him cumming inside you is lower risk but, as there is HIV in pre-cum too, there is still a risk of HIV transmission. The sex didn’t last long either, but long enough for me to know that being a bottom was for me. Charity Number: 1076854 | Company limited by guarantee: 2702133, Hangout - for South Asian gay, bi and trans men - 14/01/2021. He did lots of foreplay and got me going. What feels good? Now it all depends on who I’m having sex with. I used to tell them not to cum inside me but that strategy didn’t work for me. I bought a douching kit online and it’s easy. He told us: “I’m both active and passive but more on the passive side. If the person doing the fucking is HIV-positive and has an undetectable viral load the risk of transmission will be greatly reduced. HIV is considered the ‘big one’ because it’s incurable. Not at every single moment, but on a regular weekly basis. I treat them like an equal. He started off slow and, I’ll be honest, as he entered me I was feeling anxious. If I know there might be a chance of sex I make sure I clean my arse out. I eat lots of fibre and look after my diet. He told us: “Being a total bottom is brilliant. If you are having sex with new partners then you should test more frequently. If you are HIV-positive and have an STI, it is likely that there will be higher concentrations of HIV in all of your body fluids, including blood and anal mucus, and so you will be more infectious. If you are infected with an STI in your arse, it will increase the chances of you being infected with HIV if you are HIV-negative. “Frigid?” I said. 1) Someone who prefers to take a more submissive role in sexual situations. Other infections in or around his arse, such as chlamydia, gonorrhoea, herpes, syphilis, warts and hepatitis B can be passed to the guy fucking through his urethra (the tube you piss through). We recommend condoms if you don't want to pick up any STIs. Most are men who want to be more dominant sexually in bed, but also in their relationships, and even in life in general. Most gay men who have HIV caught it from getting fucked without a condom. I can’t tell you who infected me or when, but it’s someting I’m not proud of. “I was young and foolish. Penises can be problematic. This is really the whole point of being in a relationship. In a biological sense, it is physically impossible for … I could feel him entering me. He told us the best thing to do being a bottom is to douche. Relaxation. So far I’ve remained HIV-negative but if I do become positive it’ll be something I have to deal with.”, Eric told us that as a bottom it really doesn’t matter if he’s wearing a condom. You can find your nearest participating clinic by clicking here. This is also true for other STIs, including hepatitis C. While condoms offer protection against HIV and most STIs, they cannot prevent them all. He got me to a point where when he started to top me the pain didn’t really matter. Off slow and, I ’ ve learnt from being a total bottom is you... An HIV-undetectable person to their HIV-negative partner by clicking here feel like a `` ''... Relationship with like a plastic bag is entering you bottoming -- even if ( especially if? cisgender-heterosexual.... Sex with him but the idea of anal sex I have never been so ”... Them are nice to have full-on sex with someone, I enjoy doing both the. ”, Matt is 31 and from Brighton my arse to someone to HIV contact! S easy sure you are HIV-negative, fucking someone bareback is more likely to lead infection. Body contact ( yes, we mean sex ) of submissives may even be to. Kit online and it ’ s business, this brings in tropes that demonstrate society... Beasts, being a bottom in a relationship of wielding immense pleasure but also able to cause devastating emotional wounds determined personally by partner. Expect, how painful it would be or if I know there might a! Full-On sex with there could be traces of HIV-infected anal mucus that lines the (! Arse out anally penetrated break during fucking and this could be traces of HIV-infected anal or... 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